I have a 1989 Toyota Celica ST that needed the head rebuilt so while it was apart I decided to have the grooves cut into the head at a local machine shop. They got the car put back together and I will post more results soon. So far, the car seems to have a little bit of a rough idle but that could be due to anything. What I did notice so far is that in lower gears I can push the gas and there isnt any pinging. It just seems to accelerate nice and smoothly. I have taken off in second gear from a dead stop and didnt even notice I was still in second until I had to shift, so the grooves must have some impact. I will post again in about a week or so with gas mileage results and temperature results as I will have better data then. Good luck to all who try this! sincerely, Leif Hunt in Lake City, Florida !! Mr. Singh, I wish you luck in your endevour and I hope to one day meet you. :)
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/09/18 10:52
By: Tom Harmon
Status:
Did you get any pictures of the head, before and after?
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/09/18 20:55
By: Leif Hunt
Status:
I do have after photo's that I will email to you if requested. Im not quite sure how to post them here. I've been driving the car for about 3 days now and I have the new gas milegae results. I am now getting 35 miles per gallon and there are still some little fixes to be made so I expect that to get a little better. No temperature results as of yet. I still have a few things to get done before I post them. I want to make sure everything is how it's supposed to be before post them. The car does seem to run very good though. Im going to get fuel mileage from the Toyota dealership to compare with what I am actually getting and I will also post those results soon. If your anywhere near Lake City, Florida and you want to get this modification done to your heads just let me know and I will refer you to the mechanic who did mine.
Sincerely, Leif Hunt leif123@se.rr.com
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/09/20 23:09
By: kirch1999
Status:
Karma: 1
Epa mileage for your car is 27/34 according to www.toyotacelicas.com. I hope that helps, but if you are driving all highway miles, then its about the same as stock.
Nathan
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/10/03 01:09
By: somender
Status:
Karma: 4
Who ever gets EPA mileage?
I wonder what the 1989 Celica mileage was before?
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/10/03 07:09
By: kirch1999
Status:
Karma: 1
I know most people get 30% less than epa mileage or something like that. I just thought I'd be helpful and find some kind of baseline.
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/10/10 20:47
By: powergyoza
Status:
Karma: 1
Hey there, new to the forums. Very curious about this!
What are the specs on that engine? Engine code, HP, valves/cylincer? What type of chamber is it - pentroof?
Post edited by: powergyoza, at: 2005/10/10 21:51
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/10/19 01:43
By: powergyoza
Status:
Karma: 1
Hey folks, here's the pic of Leif's grooved Celica ST head. I'm gonna have to show this to my mechanic because we both thought there would be too little room to groove a pentroof cylinder head. Wrong!
Post edited by: powergyoza, at: 2005/10/19 02:44
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/11/08 13:24
By: somender
Status:
Karma: 4
An image of Leif's header has been placed in the Testing Results/ Gasmod section. We'd love to get any further information about this or other Groove projects.
Just send it through our contact form by following the 'Contact Us' link above.
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/11/12 01:27
By: mpgmike
Status:
Karma: 4
I was looking at the Honda B head and there isn't anyplace to put grooves on them. The Neon head and the Dodge TIII Lotus head have less room than the Celica head, but it looks like there should be enough to have an impact.
Mike
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/11/28 11:22
By: dnarby
Status:
According to the Fed's website, the best MPG for that car is 32 highway
(To the non-USA members: MPG is how we in the USA commonly refer to fuel economy - known to the rest of the world as kilometers per liter, or KPL. We also refer to speed as MPH (miles per hour) instead of KPH (kilometers per hour)).
HOWEVER... Regardless of what number is put on this car for whatever it's stock MPG was supposed to be immediately after it was first purchased and broken in, the initial MPG figures he's getting are good.
Unfortunately, it appears no baseline was established before the modification was made. This is a common problem with attempting to figure MPGs. Up until now, nobody in the USA has really given a damn about fuel economy, so hardly anybody bothers to keep a record of their MPGs (and what driving conditions the achieved them under). In fact, about half the people here aren't concerned at all with increasing MPG, they're concerned with "going fast" - just check out the projects that are listed.
Another problem is that if the MPG figures were determined using "winter blend" gasoline, they will be ~20% LESS than figures determined using "summer blend". The crap they put in the gas in the USA in the winter is horrible for fuel economy. If this is the case, when summer rolls around he could conceivably start getting up to 43 MPG.
I have a suspicion that once the car is broken in and tuned properly, much more impressive MPG ratings will be seen.
My experience has shown me that there is absolutely HUGE room for improvement in MPG over stock, and figuring out what works best takes a good deal of precise experimenting and patience.
I personally got a Dodge van up that was rated at 24 MPG highway (that I only saw 23 MPG usually) up to 30 MPG at 65 MPH using acetone, toluene, improved aerodynamics and over pressurized tires. All of these things are extremely well understood in comparison to Singh's grooves. Optimizing the effect from his invention is going to take a lot of experimentation.
I'd like to see this Celica tuned so the timing is advanced as far as it can be without pinging. Then I'd like to see it filled up at a flat, level filling station, and driven for 75 miles in one direction at a constant speed of 65 mph during a sunny day with low wind. Then I'd like to see it turned around and driven back to the same station, filled with gas, and the MPG figures calculated.
Then we'd have some real red meat as far as MPG figures are concerned for this Celica!
I have a suspicion that in order to take the full advantage from Singh's grooves it will require re-gearing, as the main benefit seems to come from a huge torque increase at low RPMs. Much higher top end gear ratios will probably be necessary to achieve high MPG figures.
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/23 22:16
By: freakytiki4u
Status:
Karma: 0
Hi everyone. I thought I would post some more results now that I have been driving the car for a while. I am still getting anywhere from 34 to 36 miles per gallon while driving the car at 60 miles per hour or less. I try to make 60 mile per hour my top speed as I drive a lot of highway miles. The car runs very good and I usually only use 1st, 3rd and 5th gear. There is no need for 2nd and 4th gear. I have kept track of gas mileage tank after tank after tank and I have not gotten less than 34 miles per gallon. Not bad for a car that is almost 20 years old. I did not have the heads shaved to achieve a compression rating of 10:1 as I didnt know I should have at the time of the mechinics work. I was told I would get even better mileage results if I had the heads shaved to raise the compression. I cant even imagine what the results would have been like if I would have gotten the heads shaved. I sincerely believe in Mr. Somender-Sings improvements and I believe he is on the verge of proving a fantastic discovery! I know he has 1 follower that knows his grooves really work. I am in the process of getting another car exactly like the one I have now (it has the same power train and is the same year model). I'm going to get it fixed and test the gas mileage without Mr. Sing's grooves, to have a comparison with my original Celica. After I get a good base line of results for comparison, I will have the grooves cut into the newest Celica along with having the heads shaved to reach the proper compression. I will post results when I have them. It takes me a little while due to monitary concerns but Im trying. Have a great day all ! Sincerely, Leif Hunt
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/24 08:28
By: kirch1999
Status:
Karma: 1
I like what I'm hearing in this discussion. What would really be neat is if someone could do before and after dyno pulls to see where the torque improves in the low end, as well as bsfc, especially if regearing the transmission is in order. Graphs make it easy to see where things improve.
I was a little fast to think that Leif was just getting the standard gas mileage of his particular model, and after hearing his numbers with winter gas, I'm impressed. I wonder if this is with ethanol mixed gas, which of course drops mileage by about 10%. If not, or if it is at most 5% ethanol, I bet these numbers can be improved even now by another 15-25% with acetone. Just think of the possibilities once summer comes around!
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/25 21:43
By: automotive breath
Status:
Karma: 3
Lief, thanks for the up date. 34 to 36 MPG is great; with an increase in compression the improvements would be even more noticeable. Next time you get the head off try a 0.040” to 0.050” shave, you will love the results. Please keep us informed of all developments.
Here in southern Louisiana, Somender has many believers and the numbers are growing quickly. My work continues on many types of cars and trucks. Driving a car with his simple design is all that’s needed for most people to observe the benefits.
AB
Post edited by: automotive breath, at: 2005/12/25 22:45
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/28 08:46
By: mpgmike
Status:
Karma: 4
kirch1999 wrote: I like what I'm hearing in this discussion. What would really be neat is if someone could do before and after dyno pulls to see where the torque improves in the low end, as well as bsfc, especially if regearing the transmission is in order. Graphs make it easy to see where things improve.
Ssheen is doing a dyno run before getting the head I'm modifying, and will do a run afterwards. Unfortunately, this head will have more modifications than just the grooves. It will feature 3 grooves and a substantial milling to raise compression; and this is on a turbocharged engine.
Post edited by: automotive breath, at: 2005/12/28 12:56
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/28 15:07
By: kirch1999
Status:
Karma: 1
mpgmike wrote: Ssheen is doing a dyno run before getting the head I'm modifying, and will do a run afterwards. Unfortunately, this head will have more modifications than just the grooves. It will feature 3 grooves and a substantial milling to raise compression; and this is on a turbocharged engine.
Will there be any other modification to the head? Milling the head is recommended already by Somender, but I have read from your site that you wanted to know what the grooves alone did. I'm following the developments of those heads with great interest to see what multiple grooves can do. However, I have noticed that none of those engines are running yet. How can you say that more grooves are better without trying it once first to be sure that it does not infact hurt efficiency? I just wish I had some spare heads and head gasket sets to try out the various possibilities. As for now the engine in my daily driver is all I have and it is in dire need of refreshment soon.
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/29 02:50
By: mpgmike
Status:
Karma: 4
kirch1999 wrote: Will there be any other modification to the head? Yes. I first open up the seat area on the mill with a boring bar. This is blended by hand afterwards. 3-angle seats and back-cut valves, and ceramic thermal barrier coatings on the exhaust ports and combustion chamber (after grooves are cut). The runners are enlarged with the exhaust just getting bigger, but the intakes will have a taper to them starting from the manifold and getting slightly smaller approaching the bowl area. I then texture the intake ports with what look like screw threads. I call them Powre Lynz, to better vaporize the fuel. All the heads I have done for the past 2 years have had the Powre Lynz added, so I already know what they do. I have enough heads going out that I can fairly well tell any significant differences between 1 groove and 3 grooves by the timeslips (and knowing the mods done to the engine otherwise). Since I'm making most of the mods for these engines, along with the head mods, I know most of what goes into these engines.
Mike
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/29 19:48
By: automotive breath
Status:
Karma: 3
mpgmike wrote: I then texture the intake ports with what look like screw threads. I call them Powre Lynz, to better vaporize the fuel. Mike, Can you tell us more about the Powre Lynz, how it's done? Any pictures?
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Re:grooves in a 1989 Toyota Celica ST
Date: 2005/12/30 21:46
By: mpgmike
Status:
Karma: 4
Here is a pic of the 5 groove bathtub head I shipped to Florida. The grey coloration is a ceramic thermal barrier coating.
Mike
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